From: IN%"[email protected]" "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fulle
r'
s works" 14-SEP-1992 18:19:21.46
To: Howard Lawrence <[email protected]>
CC:
Subj: How I Would Know.
Message-id: <[email protected]>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:07:57 EDT
From: Robert Holder <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: How I Would Know.
Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
<[email protected]>
To: Howard Lawrence <[email protected]>
Reply-to: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
<[email protected]>
X-To: GEODESIC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
sorry for my admittedly bitter little notes. I am exasperated
at the lack of real solutions. In this case, although the little
reading of fuller's work I have done has left me impressed and
excited, I sadly do not see his (and other bright thinkers) ideas
being taken up by the people who have the reins in their hands.
This suggests to me that good ideas about how to run the systems
are only part of the solution. There is also the problem of how
to get the people with the good know-how in control, and how to
make sure they stay "good" while in control. I see "good" in this
instance as being defined as the quality which is demonstrated by
those who strive to surmount the resources distribution problem
(among other problems).
This is a very difficult problem. I am not aware of anyone who
has a realistic answer to this problem; an answer which
addresses not only the systemic changes necessary for a solution,
but also the way to get access to system control to make those
changes. How do you get access to military budget control?
Gary Murphy comments on my post:
>> communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the
>> individual to strive for their own perfection.
>>
> How would you know? Fuller maintained the capitalist, or more
my opinions on this matter were influenced by my readings of
material produced by left AND right wingers about communist society.
I see communism as a totalitarian system, where the government
attempts to institute thought control, openly. I see such attempts
in our society also, but it appears to me from my readings and from
my conversations with people from the soviet union that the problem
was much worse there. Particularly, those opinions have been
reinforced by a conversations with a coworker from the soviet union
regarding soviet culture. Perhaps I have come to the wrong
conclusions... but I must believe my eyes and ears and until I get
evidence to the contrary, I am stuck with the memories I have now.
They tell me (as the ringing failure of the Soviet Union and the
technologically (for the masses anyways) stagnant performance of
communist china tells me) that communism is a Bad Model.
It makes me a bit sad that you would assume I have no idea what
I am talking about, Gary... perhaps you didn't mean it that way.
I have no illusions that our society is egalitarian. I believe
it is becoming less open all the time. I am not a patriot: I
believe nationalism is a disease. However, the people from Tampa
aren't SHELLING my offices here, and SO FAR, I haven't been arrested
for speaking my mind in this country. I know this was not the case
in the former USSR. Those factors and others do not (to MY mind)
contribute to the creation of a good environment to promote individuals
to strive for their own perfection as members of their culture, but
rather to seek to evade or subvert their culture.
But don't read that as meaning I am in the "USA #1" crowd. Indeed,
we are poised to enter a police state in our "War On Drugs" (whatever
that means... a sort of catchall label for Increased Gov't Authority)
and I forsee a great decline in civil liberties and free speech in the
next few years.
Gary again...
> the mandate of any government. If the homeless bother you, what are
> YOU doing about it.
I'm sorry Gary, although I feel I did learn some things from your
posts, and the other posts, and I appreciate the suggested reading
material (which will definitely go on my list) I feel compelled to
say that this "well what are YOU doing about it" is a copout and
distraction from the issue: WHERE did the problem come from? WHO
is responsible? Is this problem the result of INTENTIONAL ACTS?
I believe poverty is a form of violence. I believe that the excesses
of the 1980's incubated a financial elite in this country and I
believe they are directly, personally, legally responsible for
many of the problems our country faces. I am not interested in
punishing them, BUT they have the money and resources to frustrate
my efforts, whatever those efforts turn out to be. I believe that
you should find the ten foot hole in the ship before you try to bail
with a teaspoon. SO... I reserve the right to choose when and how I
enter the fray. In the meantime, I will continue to HELP the people
I KNOW how I CAN. I hope you are not asking me to account for myself
in that way; that would REALLY bum me out, because then we have
degenerated to a level where a LOT of energy will be wasted in words.
Perhaps you didn't mean the "what are YOU doing" thing this way, but
I have seen it used with monotonous regularity in our culture as a
diversion tactic, and my instincts have learned to recognize it as
meaning (say 80% of the time) that I am nearing a chink in their armor.
I am burnt out on humans, but I was once idealistic. I forsee replies
along the lines of "well if you've given up, fine, be quiet and learn
from us because we haven't given up; therefore our beliefs are valid"
I can say that I AM going to keep "trying", but my view of what I should
"try" for has changed dramatically, comprehensively, and negatively.
Also the scope of change which I find myself thinking about has increased
greatly.
What I mean is: do we still live in a world that can be saved? It
appears to me that our world may be on the verge of high technological
control which could forever remove the possibility of fixing it. I guess
my viewpoint stems largly from the fact that I see many of the world
problems as being intentionally perpetrated. Even incomptetence, that
great haven of the destroyers, boils down to intention: I believe that
people KNOW when they are getting in over their heads, and I have observed
that it is human nature to deny the inner voice which tells you to get help,
because you may be called INCOMPETENT... so it sort of fulfills itself.
Perhaps it is frustrating to you that someone who is hardly familiar with
fuller's works shows up and starts shooting his mouth off... I came here
hoping to get fuller's ideas in your own words, to help me make up
my mind about the world's predicament and how I will approach it. I have
so many teachers to listen to, books to read and lessons to learn, and only
as much time as you have... I am forced to prioritize. I hope to find
from your interpretations of Fuller's works that I can elevate his priority
in my learning.
Thank you all for your educational replies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~
~ robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx st petersburg florida usa ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
r'
s works" 14-SEP-1992 18:19:21.46
To: Howard Lawrence <[email protected]>
CC:
Subj: How I Would Know.
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Received: from JNET-DAEMON by PSUARCH.Bitnet; Mon, 14 Sep 92 18:18 EDT
Received: From PSUVM(MAILER) by PSUARCH with Jnet id 0344 for HRL@PSUARCH; Mon,
14 Sep 92 18:18 EDT
Received: by PSUVM (Mailer R2.08) id 9185; Mon, 14 Sep 92 18:12:47 EDT
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:07:57 EDT
From: Robert Holder <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: How I Would Know.
Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
<[email protected]>
To: Howard Lawrence <[email protected]>
Reply-to: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
<[email protected]>
X-To: GEODESIC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
sorry for my admittedly bitter little notes. I am exasperated
at the lack of real solutions. In this case, although the little
reading of fuller's work I have done has left me impressed and
excited, I sadly do not see his (and other bright thinkers) ideas
being taken up by the people who have the reins in their hands.
This suggests to me that good ideas about how to run the systems
are only part of the solution. There is also the problem of how
to get the people with the good know-how in control, and how to
make sure they stay "good" while in control. I see "good" in this
instance as being defined as the quality which is demonstrated by
those who strive to surmount the resources distribution problem
(among other problems).
This is a very difficult problem. I am not aware of anyone who
has a realistic answer to this problem; an answer which
addresses not only the systemic changes necessary for a solution,
but also the way to get access to system control to make those
changes. How do you get access to military budget control?
Gary Murphy comments on my post:
>> communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the
>> individual to strive for their own perfection.
>>
> How would you know? Fuller maintained the capitalist, or more
my opinions on this matter were influenced by my readings of
material produced by left AND right wingers about communist society.
I see communism as a totalitarian system, where the government
attempts to institute thought control, openly. I see such attempts
in our society also, but it appears to me from my readings and from
my conversations with people from the soviet union that the problem
was much worse there. Particularly, those opinions have been
reinforced by a conversations with a coworker from the soviet union
regarding soviet culture. Perhaps I have come to the wrong
conclusions... but I must believe my eyes and ears and until I get
evidence to the contrary, I am stuck with the memories I have now.
They tell me (as the ringing failure of the Soviet Union and the
technologically (for the masses anyways) stagnant performance of
communist china tells me) that communism is a Bad Model.
It makes me a bit sad that you would assume I have no idea what
I am talking about, Gary... perhaps you didn't mean it that way.
I have no illusions that our society is egalitarian. I believe
it is becoming less open all the time. I am not a patriot: I
believe nationalism is a disease. However, the people from Tampa
aren't SHELLING my offices here, and SO FAR, I haven't been arrested
for speaking my mind in this country. I know this was not the case
in the former USSR. Those factors and others do not (to MY mind)
contribute to the creation of a good environment to promote individuals
to strive for their own perfection as members of their culture, but
rather to seek to evade or subvert their culture.
But don't read that as meaning I am in the "USA #1" crowd. Indeed,
we are poised to enter a police state in our "War On Drugs" (whatever
that means... a sort of catchall label for Increased Gov't Authority)
and I forsee a great decline in civil liberties and free speech in the
next few years.
Gary again...
> the mandate of any government. If the homeless bother you, what are
> YOU doing about it.
I'm sorry Gary, although I feel I did learn some things from your
posts, and the other posts, and I appreciate the suggested reading
material (which will definitely go on my list) I feel compelled to
say that this "well what are YOU doing about it" is a copout and
distraction from the issue: WHERE did the problem come from? WHO
is responsible? Is this problem the result of INTENTIONAL ACTS?
I believe poverty is a form of violence. I believe that the excesses
of the 1980's incubated a financial elite in this country and I
believe they are directly, personally, legally responsible for
many of the problems our country faces. I am not interested in
punishing them, BUT they have the money and resources to frustrate
my efforts, whatever those efforts turn out to be. I believe that
you should find the ten foot hole in the ship before you try to bail
with a teaspoon. SO... I reserve the right to choose when and how I
enter the fray. In the meantime, I will continue to HELP the people
I KNOW how I CAN. I hope you are not asking me to account for myself
in that way; that would REALLY bum me out, because then we have
degenerated to a level where a LOT of energy will be wasted in words.
Perhaps you didn't mean the "what are YOU doing" thing this way, but
I have seen it used with monotonous regularity in our culture as a
diversion tactic, and my instincts have learned to recognize it as
meaning (say 80% of the time) that I am nearing a chink in their armor.
I am burnt out on humans, but I was once idealistic. I forsee replies
along the lines of "well if you've given up, fine, be quiet and learn
from us because we haven't given up; therefore our beliefs are valid"
I can say that I AM going to keep "trying", but my view of what I should
"try" for has changed dramatically, comprehensively, and negatively.
Also the scope of change which I find myself thinking about has increased
greatly.
What I mean is: do we still live in a world that can be saved? It
appears to me that our world may be on the verge of high technological
control which could forever remove the possibility of fixing it. I guess
my viewpoint stems largly from the fact that I see many of the world
problems as being intentionally perpetrated. Even incomptetence, that
great haven of the destroyers, boils down to intention: I believe that
people KNOW when they are getting in over their heads, and I have observed
that it is human nature to deny the inner voice which tells you to get help,
because you may be called INCOMPETENT... so it sort of fulfills itself.
Perhaps it is frustrating to you that someone who is hardly familiar with
fuller's works shows up and starts shooting his mouth off... I came here
hoping to get fuller's ideas in your own words, to help me make up
my mind about the world's predicament and how I will approach it. I have
so many teachers to listen to, books to read and lessons to learn, and only
as much time as you have... I am forced to prioritize. I hope to find
from your interpretations of Fuller's works that I can elevate his priority
in my learning.
Thank you all for your educational replies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~
~ robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx st petersburg florida usa ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~