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Van: owner-heidegger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx namens Tympan Plato
Verzonden: do 11/18/2004 3:02
Aan: heidegger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
CC:
Onderwerp: RE: nietzsche's secret
Tympan,
In my view, you see the old and the new too much as oppositions.
The Nietzsche saying: 'Art is more valuable than truth' might
suggest that knowledge, reason, principles are mere obstacles
for rising life. Initially this is certainly so, and Heidegger
responds to it by beginning his Nietzsche lectures with will-to-
power as art. Strikingly, right away the ambiguity - not at all
a negative notion with me - of the relation art-truth, starting
with Plato, and leading to an appalling opposition in Nietzsche
himself, is there. The second lecture is on Eternal Return, as
the first and main thought of Nietzsche, and which will enable
the unity of will-to-power. In fact, in the third lecture:
WtP as knowledge, Heidegger begins by explaining that the WAY
TOWARDS WtP, gone by Nietzsche, is urged by the thought of ER
itself. Right after the blow, the plans for a work 'The will
to power', or other titles, start.
Let me restrict myself now to Heidegger's title: apparently it
is essential for WtP to know itself. And getting to know oneself
is going a way. Although it remains true that Nietzsche dissects
all previous conceptions of knowledge as misleading (leading to
a wrong world), nonetheless he does not throw knowledge and its
elements away. On the contrary, he takes excruciating pains to
re-interprete. Of categories, the principle of non-contradiction
etc. as indispensable means for life towards solidification.
Would he simply be a destroyer of the old, and throw off the
inherited and incorporated errors, then nothing would have
remained. But they are all we are, that's the tragedy.
Zarathustra BEGINS by going down.
From here it's a long way to the change of tone of the principle
of ground, but the 'same' can be seen there: without pacing off
the take-off area, there is no jumping, or alone an imaginary one.
And notably when it is swamp one is moving in.
Thanks for your comments. First right at the beginning of this thread I said
that I wasn't concerned with discussing Heidegger's view of Nietzsche. I'm
making my own way here through the obstacles. i knew this was going to
happen that's why I said what I did in the first three lines of my postings
on N. I knew you would take up the role of being Heidegger's representative.
i just read the beginning of Descartes' Discours how to manage reason.
he is asking the reader to value his method - the one of doubting everything
and accepting only the evident - , not to do the same, because who can say
he is fit to after taking notice of Descartes' laborious vigilance. Subjectivism
for him is just another sort of dogmatism. So that Descartes new determanation
of the subject is nothing 'subjective'.
The only possible following of Dscartes would consist in trying to attain
for oneself
the position of doubting subject, but so that only by doubting a subject is
revealing, re-presenting itself. The rest is hearsay. Interesting that he rather
would call his writing piece a fable than a history, indicating that philosophy
is never the representation of the existent, but creative.
You might be right with your authority argument - others coem to mind again -
but before the question of how to read and interpret Heidegger can be raised,
one should first have thought about subject and subjectivism. Esp. in view of the
problem Nietzsche detects, that the basis for subjective stances is no more.
When that would be done, THEN the next question would be: when Heidegger
considers tuned Dasein as more basic than reflexivity, how can i then follow
Heidegger? Surely not by representation [this is funny] , but, as Heidegger suggests,
by being the Da.
In short, you represent the common feature of these times: i don't want authority.
But that is not said, but someone else is searched for and accused of following
aother leading.
But i am looking for more than posturemaking, and that is already the beginning
of searching authority. It demands discipline and honesty, and what not.
Moreover: where to stay meanwhile as long as one is not that far, which one never is?
(Descartes' question beginning third paragraph)
And what also comes to mind is Heidegger's warning to let be the already thought.
Not copying, but thinking oneself is required for that.
and connect everything to Heidegger's discussion of Leibniz's priciple of
sufficient reason but had not the four volumes in mind which I have not
digested well yet. I just don't want my mind full of those issues
necessarily. As far as throwing away the old Rene I have to smile... It's
not like someone who is descending into the dark night of knowing in search
of Persephone or innovation is exactly throwing out the old ways of moving
along. Cultivating possibility is older than the hills eh? Again the crucial
question that makes a real difference from a practical point of view is HOW
is it that we are refining ourselves by questioning the rush towards
actualization that then would make everything only a matter of our own
subjective willfulness? I'm not the one that is cutting off the traditional
ways of discussing this whole issue. I am even including taoist buddhism in
not wanting to get stuck in purely Greek-Jewish roots.
Bravo, but maybe traditions should be kept apart, they have different origins.
you already have presupposed a lot - decisive - by your easy, tolerant, popular
talk. In that case, one better stop doing philosophy, and look around and maybe see,
that permissive thought is the root of destruction. It already presupposes an easyness
for what is to be thought, that does not know the nature of what is at stake.
This directly leads to the 'problem' of evil. Therefore i warn everyone intruding, not that
he or she is evil, but that one touches it also when one does not see or know it.
Trawny wrote an interesting two pages in the Heidegger studies on this theme.
Someone had tried to interpret one sentence of the dialogue in the evening in a Russian
prisoner camp, all-too-casually.
rene
I'm careful on how I
proceed with my own sense of renewal or recycling. With Schelling I'm not
even being anti-rational but hyper rational in the sense that direction in
this regard is from an epoche of understanding into a constriction of an
absolute idea whose crisis is a breaking apart of that very identity. In
Fichte, Schelling, Schopenahauer Reason is freedom-will-possibility.
Hartmann influenced by Schopenhauer says this is the unconscious. Heidegger
when it comes to Nietzsche I don't think brings out the history ideas that
is in the back of his mind. For sure one can't avoid Schopenhauer but what
does this mean? In The _Parerga and Paralipomena_ he writes "For our
civilized world is nothing but a great masquerade. you encounter knights,
parsons, soldiers, doctors, lawyers, priests, philosophers and a thousand
more: but they are not what they appear -- they are merely masks behind
which as a rule a money-grubbers are hiding. One man puts on the mask of
justice the better to attack his fellows; another, with the same object
inview, chooses that of the public good and patriotism; a third that of
religion and purity of faith [...] Then there the universal masks without
any special character, as it were dominoes, which are therefore to be met
with everywhere: among these are strict honesty, politeness, sincere
sympathy and grining affability [...] Man is at bottom a dreadful wild
animal." Nietzsche talks like this all the time except that he comes to have
more faith in animals than perhaps Schopehauer did. This is the pessimist
school that Nietzsche says he doesn't drop but takes to its logical
conclusion. He mentions writers like Pascal and La Rochefoucauld one
remembers also Macheavelli, Leopardi, Pyrrho, Gracian.
The ER is important and there is lots of ways of thinking of it. In thus
spoke in Of The Vision and the Riddle ER is the gateway of the MOMENT,
Zarathustra's "most abysmal thought". ER says it seems to me, "Are you
prepared to live your life over and over again?". Can you think of anything
else that is more worthwhile Rene than living your life over and over again?
If ER is the philosophical now then it operates like an aporetic riddle
which slows thinking down pointing to nothingness. Thinking starts to
incubate in its ownmost possibility and THIS is the beginning of an
undergoing (untergehen). It's an annihilating breaking down of
consciousness. The subject is destroyed, broken, split apart in a tragic
manner. The big problem here, and it's Zarathustra great temptation as he
listens to the cry of distress in book four; is PITY. Thus Spoke finishes
with great dark laughter which is an overcoming of pity for the 'higher
men', for us and for ourselves. The great wisdom is finally not public but a
withdrawal into the hermetic silence and solitude of an ASS: "He goes
through the world unpretentiously. Grey is the favourite colour in which he
wraps his virtue. If he has spirit, he conceals it; but everyone believes in
his long ears" (Thus Spoke: The Awakening). Secrecy was Nietzsche's way. We
will never know what he believed.
tympan
rene
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Van: owner-heidegger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-heidegger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]Namens Tympan Plato
Verzonden: woensdag 17 november 2004 0:49
Aan: heidegger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Onderwerp: RE: nietzsche's secret
Rene and list phantoms,
Time passes and the memory with it. Sometimes it's impossible finding what
you want in Nietzsche books they don't read from cover to cover as if a
clear argument was being explicated from page to page. No they are
rhizomatic short-term memory arrivals of a flowing wave that as soon as it
seems it is delivering its pearls does it withdraw into the open sea where
it drowns for all time in the universal confusion of all things. The
aphorisms that I appreciate the most in Nietzsche often allude to the
frustration of trying to give words to something that is really captivating
and like the doorway to an unexpected horizon promising the world and then
some. Words seem not to be able to catch up with the quick flash of insight
and only make there way into darkness and forgetfulness. One of these is
#298 of _The Gay Science_ : "Sigh. -- I caught this insight on the way and
quickly seized the rather poor words that were closest to hand to pin it
down lest it fly away again. And now it has died of these arid words and
shakes and flaps in them -- and I hardly know any more when i look how I
could ever have felt so happy when I caught this bird." You are funny Rene
your mind is old and still attached to yesterday in some alleged polemic
that happened worrying conscientiously about being overly subjective LOL...
Me I'm going with the ebb and flow of the high seas trying to find some
point of stability that can operate as a port in an ongoing becoming
unconscious of an itinerary of the foreign, nomadic adventure of the
homeless;-- to whom Niezsche commends his 'secret' science as the ones being
most worthy of it: "For their fate is hard, their hopes are uncertain; it is
quite a feat to devise some comfort for them -- but what avail? We children
of the future, how *could* we be at home today [...] We ourselves who are
homeless constitute a force that breaks open ice and other all too thin
"realities" [...] We "conserve" nothing; neither do we want to return to any
past periods [...] We are delighted with all who love,as we do, war, danger,
adventures" (#377 TGS) Embark! Rene! before you are too old for it. Thinking
with Nietzsche of briefness again he writes that being an adventurer one
does best when one is not attached to whatever comes along. A good rule of
thumb is not to get too involved and dig too deeply into what appears and
this is hardly any less the wisdom of Pyrrho that beautiful skeptic of
yesteryears for whom the surface and skin of things was enough. Does a
letter sink in much further than the support over which it lays itself out
like a homeric dawn? Do you know what the happiness of Homer was for
Nietzsche? It was to "got through life with a calm eye and firm step, always
prepared to risk all -- festively, impelled by the longing for undiscovered
world and seas, people and gods; to harken to all cheerful music as if it
were probably seeking their brief rest and pleasure there -- and in the most
profound enjoyment of the moment, to be overcome by tears and the whole
crimson melancholy of the happy.." (TGS #302). This is the fresh air that
Nietzsche the convalescent needed as matter of survival. The light air of
the mediterranean, of Italian Renaissance virtu. In #295 TGS he tells us how
much he loves the light air of brief habits and that it is due to his bouts
of sickness and the imperfections of his state that he has a multitude of
ways to get out of the thick, stale air of enduring habits, of a stable
being. Becoming conscious is always the work of eduring habits of memory, of
stable being that constructs the illusion that there is subject in control
of the will that is free to act or not to act in a particular way and
because of this freedom this subject is responsible and accountable for his
or her actions. Becoming unconscious on the other hand implies an active
forgetting, the ability to be done with experience, to let go of habits. It
is a becoming unconscious that takes us from the stability of being to the
innocence of becoming, from the subject to Dasein at its ownmost
possibility. Dasein here is young like Dionysus and a rehabilitating
fountain of youth, red dawning of Persephone. This is what Nietzsche calls
HOMO NATURA which is always denaturalized, mutilated and castrated by a
becoming conscious of one's actions that are then felt to require a reason
or a why. The will as denaturalized would require motives and would be an
opus operatum. The last thing a noble convalescent needs is to work. Work
can never lead to justice or health: "For works, which may proceed from a
person's intentional (ie. motive-determined) action, can never justify us,
from the very nature of that action, just because it is INTENTIONAL, and
produced by motives, OPUS OPERATUM" (Schopenhauer, _The World as Will and
Idea_ book four, section 70). Real freedom in Dasein is an independence from
the principle of sufficient reasons and its principium individuationis, from
having to answer the demands for reasons. At play, indeed its a question of
being free to play;-- is a dissolution of consciousness through the negative
labour of the negative concept of freedom that naturalizes a person so that
he or she poetically dwells between the earth and sky and between mortals
and gods on the fourfold. The higher type is always instinctive and not
self-conscious because their reason has PAUSED which is why they are a
becoming animal. For Schopenahuer to get here involves a resignation of the
will so that it becomes inoperative labour, a quieting resignation and even
skeptical indifference one of whose models for him was the heretic Madame
Guyon: "the higher type is more UNREASONABLE (than the common type), for
those who are noble, magnanimous, and self-sacrificial do sucumb to their
instincts, and when they are at their best, their reason PAUSES. An animal
that protects its young at the risk of its life, or that during the mating
season follows the female unto death, does not think of danger or death; its
reason also pauses, because the pleasure in its young or in the female and
the fear of being deprived of this pleasure dominate totally; the animal
becomes more stupid than usual -- just like those who are noble and
magnanimous" (#3 TGS). This for Niezsche was clearly the beast of prey, the
"mother" type who knew how to forget and was the immoralist priest leader of
the herd.
tympan
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