Fred Said:
In a message dated 11/25/2004 3:30:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
The wholesale mass (by a mass for a mass) manufacturing (of goodies,
'culture', death, and life, etc) frenzy is not initiated by or a novelty of
the nazis or the communists or democraps, but a defining feature of
modernity whereby the animale rationale [sic] having thrown of, murdered the
gods now seeks to assume utter dominion of all beings (including the human
being); and this we do (as we are done) by making beings over into things of
our pleasure (will) and power (will).
Micheal, I would like to establish definitively whether Heidegger is a real
philosopher or a spiritual leader of nazism. It is not clearly evident from
his works that he is leading nazis. So, others claims to this effect, which
are quite insistent, needs validation. In this last post of mine which
commented on, I am using a counterfactual argument to create a debate. But,
your response is merely stating the evident capitalist reality (Brave New
World), whereas I am looking for a so-called philosophical defense of nazism
(as a specific instance of modernity's dark side) in Heidegger's works.
Fred in answer to your first quest above: cryptically, I should like to say
that the answer is neither; what manner of being heidegger is can not be
caught in the pincers of 'philosopher' (presumably versus?) and 'spiritual
nazi leader'; that is not to say that one could not find evidence for either
or both (yes he lectured philosophy courses and wrote philosophical texts,
and yes, he wrote a few speeches praising national socialism, etc, etc) but
our question is one of thinking this oeuvre of texts in an essential way and
not falling prey to conventional positions (and thus tidying things up in
nice safe conclusions); one way or another heidegger is a dangerous thinker
at the very heart of metaphysics but the only way through it and onwards
(which is something that has to be performed at EVERY occasion of serious
thinking; the only thing to think is be-ing and that means what is not when
(ever) a being is) which for heidegger meant what he called the step back
(not in chronological or logical time but what calls time into timing, what
historicises history, what begins all beginnings, etc); heidegger's relation
to both the tradition of western philosophy, to the gestell of technological
dominion, to the national socialist status quo, to nietzsche, to
thinking/acting/waiting, (etc), are all necessarily (within his thinking)
ambiguous; to my tiny mind, heidegger was/is neither a 'philosopher' nor a
'spiritual leader' of anything never mind nazis (they were just there,
revolutionary, anti-democratic, etc); he does not teach anything, I mean,
any thing: just (!) thinking (which means: the thinking of be-ing).
Why in heaven's name are you looking for "so-called philosophical defense of
nazism (as a specific instance of modernity's dark side) in Heidegger's
works."? If you look for such a thing, such a loaded thing as that, you will
surely find some evidence for it (as so many others have already done to
exhaustion). Then what? What will have you have found that is itself
philosophically significant? And significant in what way? Apart from
anything else it occurs to me that nazism did not need any defence never
mind a philosophical defence or an artistic defence or a legal defence
(although, of course they did seek such to some extent and that was Junger's
critique of them, that they passed up the real revolutionary potential). But
I go back to asking what use would finding what you're looking for supply?
Given this is a philosophy list, how would such 'evidence' advance any
philosophy? If we put heidegger on trial for such he would be found guilty
by democrats: so what? By the same token (of finding 'evidence') it is just
as possible to find almost everyone living in democratic societies guilty of
the crimes of democracy because the very taking part in such societies
amounts to going along at least with the results of that taking part (as
opposed, say, to taking it apart), if not singing its praises with guns (and
burger-buns) a-slinging, shouting from the hip... What point,
philosophically, would be served to find exactly what you've your sights on
finding? Set your sights and you find the sites -- so what!
And as for the "capitalist reality" you suggest was the suggestion I made:
not especially capitalist. Descartes set the terror of finding one's self
speaking (thinking, acting articulately, being 'together') possibly a-lone,
without being heard (cf Hobbes); the terror of certainty; we're all now
tainted by certainty, which then narrows the world to experience and
experience to evidence and evidence to data: this is where terror as norm is
borne... To me, heidegger is the only thinker to have 'measured up' to this
whilst lick-spittle-spiders and bone-dry half-flies mean to accuse him of...
what!
regrads
michaelP
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In a message dated 11/25/2004 3:30:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
The wholesale mass (by a mass for a mass) manufacturing (of goodies,
'culture', death, and life, etc) frenzy is not initiated by or a novelty of
the nazis or the communists or democraps, but a defining feature of
modernity whereby the animale rationale [sic] having thrown of, murdered the
gods now seeks to assume utter dominion of all beings (including the human
being); and this we do (as we are done) by making beings over into things of
our pleasure (will) and power (will).
Micheal, I would like to establish definitively whether Heidegger is a real
philosopher or a spiritual leader of nazism. It is not clearly evident from
his works that he is leading nazis. So, others claims to this effect, which
are quite insistent, needs validation. In this last post of mine which
commented on, I am using a counterfactual argument to create a debate. But,
your response is merely stating the evident capitalist reality (Brave New
World), whereas I am looking for a so-called philosophical defense of nazism
(as a specific instance of modernity's dark side) in Heidegger's works.
Fred in answer to your first quest above: cryptically, I should like to say
that the answer is neither; what manner of being heidegger is can not be
caught in the pincers of 'philosopher' (presumably versus?) and 'spiritual
nazi leader'; that is not to say that one could not find evidence for either
or both (yes he lectured philosophy courses and wrote philosophical texts,
and yes, he wrote a few speeches praising national socialism, etc, etc) but
our question is one of thinking this oeuvre of texts in an essential way and
not falling prey to conventional positions (and thus tidying things up in
nice safe conclusions); one way or another heidegger is a dangerous thinker
at the very heart of metaphysics but the only way through it and onwards
(which is something that has to be performed at EVERY occasion of serious
thinking; the only thing to think is be-ing and that means what is not when
(ever) a being is) which for heidegger meant what he called the step back
(not in chronological or logical time but what calls time into timing, what
historicises history, what begins all beginnings, etc); heidegger's relation
to both the tradition of western philosophy, to the gestell of technological
dominion, to the national socialist status quo, to nietzsche, to
thinking/acting/waiting, (etc), are all necessarily (within his thinking)
ambiguous; to my tiny mind, heidegger was/is neither a 'philosopher' nor a
'spiritual leader' of anything never mind nazis (they were just there,
revolutionary, anti-democratic, etc); he does not teach anything, I mean,
any thing: just (!) thinking (which means: the thinking of be-ing).
Why in heaven's name are you looking for "so-called philosophical defense of
nazism (as a specific instance of modernity's dark side) in Heidegger's
works."? If you look for such a thing, such a loaded thing as that, you will
surely find some evidence for it (as so many others have already done to
exhaustion). Then what? What will have you have found that is itself
philosophically significant? And significant in what way? Apart from
anything else it occurs to me that nazism did not need any defence never
mind a philosophical defence or an artistic defence or a legal defence
(although, of course they did seek such to some extent and that was Junger's
critique of them, that they passed up the real revolutionary potential). But
I go back to asking what use would finding what you're looking for supply?
Given this is a philosophy list, how would such 'evidence' advance any
philosophy? If we put heidegger on trial for such he would be found guilty
by democrats: so what? By the same token (of finding 'evidence') it is just
as possible to find almost everyone living in democratic societies guilty of
the crimes of democracy because the very taking part in such societies
amounts to going along at least with the results of that taking part (as
opposed, say, to taking it apart), if not singing its praises with guns (and
burger-buns) a-slinging, shouting from the hip... What point,
philosophically, would be served to find exactly what you've your sights on
finding? Set your sights and you find the sites -- so what!
And as for the "capitalist reality" you suggest was the suggestion I made:
not especially capitalist. Descartes set the terror of finding one's self
speaking (thinking, acting articulately, being 'together') possibly a-lone,
without being heard (cf Hobbes); the terror of certainty; we're all now
tainted by certainty, which then narrows the world to experience and
experience to evidence and evidence to data: this is where terror as norm is
borne... To me, heidegger is the only thinker to have 'measured up' to this
whilst lick-spittle-spiders and bone-dry half-flies mean to accuse him of...
what!
regrads
michaelP
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