for your eyes onlyPatrice:
First of all, thank you for discussing the subject of "movement" and "motion" with me.
And, I am especially gratified, since you are handicapped by language.
And, I am amazed that our other listers have yet to jump into the discussion.
But, then, it makes communication on the Subject much easier to persue.
I shall try to make some sense of the following comments.
In doing so, I wIll try to achieve simplicity for reading.
ALSO, I AM REPLYING IN (mostly) CAPITALIZED BLUE TYPE.
I am sharing this information with our Design List subscribers.
I am doing this for its educational value to design/designers.
Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: patachon
To: Howard Ray Lawrence
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:52 PM
Subject: for your eyes only
Patrice:
1) Since when is pragmatics the primary objective of applied design?
if you apply your design into some result, you become pragmatic, as you produce a finite result.
I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT.
2) analog movement means similar movement ? a definition ?
An analog of a given movement is a set of movement properties representing an actual movement.
so, then analogy is a re-presentation of a prior event. a re-enactment (...) doing something again. with a similar effect or result.
YES.
but if the analogy is there, it can be also exactly similar.
and no difference has to be necesarily awaited between a movement and his analogy.
NO. THIS IS WRONG. VIRTUAL MOVEMENT IS NOT ACTUAL MOVEMENT.
THE STATIC VIRTUAL MOVEMENT MUST BE PUT INTO DYNAMIC MOVMENT, AN ACTUAL ACTION.
same way of expression of a physical event
same law of expression, and therefore same words to describe it.
WELL, WORDS, MATHEMATICS, AND ANALOGUES MAY BE USED TO DESCRIBE THE MOVEMENT; AND THIS IS USUALLY THE APPROACH TO DESIGNING THE MOVEMENT.
3) Suppose we are also trying to find a definition of what's exactly "physical " : a first approach would be by comparing physical to others "concepts" of thinking.
I'LL BITE. PHYSICAL MEANS MATERIAL. IT IS BASED ON A CONCEPT.
4) Does design need a physical support always ? could the concept ( of movement f.i.) stay purely teorical at some stage , like let's say in the theory of the atomic bomb before the analysis of his physical , real effects ? without a theory beeing pragmatically applied ?
I SUPPOSE IT COULD. HOWEVER, IF ONE IS DOING PHYSICAL DESIGN, THEN IT MUST BE BUILT IN THE REAL WORLD, NOT JUST REMAIN IN THE IMAGINED WORLD. WE ARE PHYSICAL DESIGNERS, IF WE ARE DOING ARCHITECTURE, PAINTING, SCULPTURE, ETC. THE OBJECTIVE OF OUR WORK IS TO PLACE SOMETHING-FROM-NOTHING INTO THE PHYSICAL WORLD.
5) Physical versus abstract ? materialized versus idealized ? applied vs designed ?
PLEASE REFER TO MY EARLIER COMMENTS.
6) motion moves some thing, in some form of relative movement one to another, and encircling (tirning around) is a movement and a motion, stars move in the sky, the sun seems motionless at the center of the universe, a.s.o.
MOTION CAN ONLY MOVE SOMETHING IF THERE IS A MEDIUM AGAINST WHICH IT ACTS. IF NO MEDIUM, THEN NO MOVEMENT.
7) any displacement is supposed by reference to another object, fixed or moving.
YOU ARE CORRECT. MOVEMENT IS UNDERSTOOD TO EXIST BASED ON A REFERENCE TO THE PARTS BEING MOVED. THAT IS, ELEMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, CHANGING POSITION IN SPACE, WILL PROVIDE A REFERENCE TO PREVIOUSLY DEFINED ELEMENTS IN SPACE. SO, ON THIS BASIS WE MAY PERCEIVE AN CHANGE IN THE POSITIONING OF THE ELEMENTS. THAT IS, WE MAY PERCEIVE A MOVEMENT.
the time to execute/travel a distance is used commonly as the necessary reference included in some equation to dexpress the result.
d=vt; t= d/v; v=d/t. where, d=distance (feet; inches, cm,meters, etc.); v=velocity (distance/time) (feet/seconds); t=time (seconds, nanoseconds, etc.).
So movement or motion use time as reference. eventually a difference between motion and movement is the reference we are using for each. any example of such diference then ?
MOVEMENT IS NOT MOTION! WE MAY/MUST REFERENCE MOVEMENT BY DISTANCE, VELOCITY AND/OR TIME.
If you accept (for the earth) that motion is a kind of rotation on herself, and movement is just a displacement more visble, around the sun, eventually we create/ have such set of definitions: motion can be invisble without a visible reference, movement is perceived by comparison.
THIS IS A QUESTION OF THE SCALE OF THE OBJECT-SPACE RELATIONSHIP. IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE OBSERVER OF THE MOTION AND MOVEMENT.
8) the point here is what's the difference betwen motion and movement. where does it begin? and is there a diference ? in the french, motion and mouvement are "covering" very diferent concepts. Motion (f.i. "de censure" is a kind of action in politics, mouvement is THE physical perception. Movie /motion / movement...
but we could say the motion is the base of the movement if we accept motion more as the basic force of movement, Like his motor ...
the motion is the base of the movement . . .motion more as the basic force of movement. . .
9) a movie film ( a set of moving images) is said to be a "motion picture" : is 'it because we can't see actually the motioned images on the acetate tape but we see the movement produced on the screen as a result of some "invisible" process ? (actually the complete details of the movie filming and projection process is unknown from many if not the majority of the movie viewers)
ON THE FILM ARE A SET OF STATIC IMAGES OF SEQUENCES OF MOTION. THE FILM IS THE MEDIUM ON WHICH THE MOTION IS REPRESENTED AS A SERIES OF STATIC IMAGES. EACH IMAGE IS IN A DIFFERENT POSITION WITHIN A FRAME OF REFERENCE. IN PASSING THROUGH THE PROJECTOR MECHANISM, EACH STATIC IMAGE IS RECEIVED BY THE EYE, AND THE BRAIN, IN A SET SEQUENCE. DEPENDING ON THE RATE OF RECEPTION, THE PERCEIVED MOVEMENT IS EITHER STACATTO OR SLURED. BUT IN THIS CASE THE MOVEMENT IS VIRTUAL MOVEMENT RATHER THAN ACTUAL MOVEMENT. IT IS NOT PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IT MAY, OR MAY NOT, HAVE BEEN DERIVED FROM PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IT MAY HAVE BEEN DERIVED FROM IMAGINED, OR CONCEPTUAL, MOVEMENT. BUT IT COULD, OR COULD NOT, EVENTUALLY BE CONSTRUCTED INTO ACTUAL PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. MUCH DEPENDS ON THE INTENT OF THE DESIGNER, AND THE PHYSICS AND ENGINEERING OF ITS IMPLEMENTATION.
10) time is probably just a way to measure a necessity we invented, our need to locate ourselves on some scale of passing (moving) events around us, like the moon phases or seasons.
d=vt IS THE BASIS OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF TIME TO VELOCITY AND DISTANCE. SOMETIMES IT IS UNNECESSARY TO ACTUALLY MEASURE THESE RELATIONSHIPS IN THE DESIGN PROCESS. THAT IS, THEY JUST INITIALLY EXIST IN SOME RELATIONSHIP. HOWEVER, SPECIFYING THAT RELATIONSHIP CAN GIVE PRECISION TO THE INTENTIONS OF THE DESIGN APPLICATION. IN FACT, SUCH SPECIFICATIONS ARE NECESSARY TO MAKE THE MOVEMENT WORK IN ANY GIVEN CONTEXT. WITHOUT SUCH A SPECIFICATION, THE RESULTS OF THE DESIGN COULD BE DISASTEROUS!
later on we progressively accelerated our created motions and sowe needed more precise timings of our movements.
MAYBE. IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE CONTEXT.
11) analog is for me similar to the reference, but presented using under another name, word, definition ( similarity/same nature/reproductible/assimilable...) but for you ? Is there have another definition when applied to movement (physical) you could describe
And is actual : present (as in "now" !) ; real; effective (factual), accidental,... or what else?
THE BASIC IDEA IS THAT MOTION AND MOVEMENT ARE DIFFERENCE. I HAVE TRIED TO DESCRIBE THIS DIFFERENCE IN THE TEXT ABOVE, SO IT SHOUL BE VERY CLEAR NOW. IF NOT, THEN PLEASE ASK ME AGAIN.
12) if physical laws are the same in any world, 2d and 3d design use the same laws (of concept, fabrication, perception, a.s.o. , )until we are confronted with diferences of the interpretation(s) each of us does within our CPU ( (inside our brain)...
THE ASSUMPTION THAT PHYSICAL LAWS ARE THE SAME IN ANY WORLD IS A GREAT LEAP OF FAITH. FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THAT 2-SPACE IS QUITE A DIFFERENT PLACE THAN 3-SPACE. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. SO, WE CAN CONCEIVE OF 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE MOVEMENTS AS ANALOGUES, AND THEY MAY, OR MAY NOT, BE CONNECTING WORLDS. BUT WE USUALLY USE 2-SPACE ANALOGUES TO DESIGN 3-SPACE ACTUAL MOVEMENTS.
13) physics of movement and his timing are always related, as without time there is no movement.
I WOULD AGREE. HOWEVER, TIME MAY NOT BE INITIALLY SPECIFIED AS EXACTLY IN THE 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE ANALOGUES OF IT. THAT IS, WE MAY COME TO SPECIFIC DEFINITION RELATING TO TIMING LATER. IT IS A CONDITION OF CONTEXT, TO APPLICATIONS.
14) academic definitions evolve by chance, relations between cultures, influences of thinkers, invention of slang, discoveries to become the academically sanitized (sometimes) but standardized definitions published in referecne books or dictionaries.
FOR NOW, LET US JUST LEAVE IT AT CHANCE. AND, OF COURSE, IT MAY BE SUFFICIENT TO BE AN ACADEMIC DEFINITION, BUT IS IS NOT NECESARILY AN ACADEMIC ONE. IT IS THE CONCEPTION OF MOVEMENT THAT IS OF INTEREST HERE.
15) about machine impact on human life, i should consider that they can be negative, parasites, symbionic or positive...
--- because they can make us become physically and sometimes spiritually lazy, (easier to see tv than read a book)
---- progress needs machines, but cars kills, Progress kills, in some way or sometimes, if the balance of pro and con effects are not exactly previsible (on the long run ) when first used or invented, Asbestos, Nitrogen oxides from diesel fuels, plastics,...
YES INDEED! PHYSICALLY MECHANIZING HUMAN LIFE MUST BE DONE WITH A CAREFUL BALANCE. OF COURSE, BY MACHINE, WE SIMPLE MEAN "MULTIPLYING OUR WORK EFFORTS". THAT CAN BE OF VALUE IN SERVING PRODUCTION. HOWEVER, IN SO, WE CAN MULTIPLY HUMAN LIFE ITESELF. SO, THE INITIAL BENEFITS OF MULTIPLYING WORK EFFORT ONLY SEEM TO LEAD TO MORE HUMAN LIFE---AND MORE DEMAND FOR MORE MACHINES TO SUPPORT IT! IF THROWN INTO AN IMBALANCE, THEN IT CAN LEAD TO A COLLAPSE OF CIVILIZATIONS. IT OFTEN DOES IN THE FORM OF "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse".
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/4horse.jpg.html
THERE ARE, OF COURSE, MANY INTREPRETATIONS OF THIS BIBLICAL CONCERN OF REVALATIONS.
16) the concept of speeding things using machines is extremely huge inour modern world.
we need more speed each day, more speed of (abstract) communication, tv, cellphones, WWW), and simultaneously we loose on the same basis the sense of our presence on earth with relation to our natural environment and our neighbours. Our system of interrelationship becomes artificial.
AN INDIVIDUALS, AND GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS, WE MUST WORK ON CHANGING THESE RELATIONSHIPS.
BUT, SPEED ITSELF, IS NOT REALLY MY EXACT CONCERN IN THIS DISCUSSION: MY EXACT CONCERN IS THE DESIGN OF PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IN TERMS OF APPLIED DESIGN, IT IS STILL QUITE STIMULATING (OR EXCITING) TO TRAVEL THROUGH SPACE AT ANY SCALE, ENCLOSED OR EXPOSED.
17) We need excessiive material support ( certainlly monetary) for surviving in urban or residential areas, spending more and more for futilities like Humvees or Rolex watches, and can't figure we could learn again to wait a pair of days to glue correctly an old book or see the cherries blossoming after the fowers in our gardens or public spaces. 18) about bionics, i asked if you were kidding ? you mean humanlike robots ? the day they cure themselves of their own failures ( or rusting ball bearings problems) , produce their own software to learn chinese or Kiswaeli or save a stroke patient by the books, we'll talk again...
WELL PERHAPS. . . THE WORK OF THE CHILEAN ARTIST ROBERTO MATTA SHOWS US A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF OUR CURRENT WORKS ON EARTH. PERHAPS IT IS ANOTHER WARNING TO US!
http://www.matta-art.com/
18) about flat imagery , and movies beeing a false effect of pseudo 3d, i wrote that a a movie is a succession of still impressions ,on a bromured celluloid or a pixeled tv screen, of something happening in front of the sensor. . If you look at a roll of images, flat, 2d, on some acetate support, you have no movement if the roll isn't moved in the movie projector. movement of the roll produce , eventually, 3d , on the screen
YES. I DISCUSSED THAT ASPECT IN THE TEXT ABOVE.
19) you can't make a picture movie of a still object, without any movement, (neither of the camera or object) except for very artistic, quite autistic purposes....
YOU MIGHT WANT TO EXPAND ON THIS IDEA.
(I HAVE OBSERVED THE DESIGN OF BOTH 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE---VIRTUAL AND ACTUAL--- MOVEMENTS.)
20) about the 3d sensors we have on your head and the way they (we) see (perceive) perspective, distance and proportions, i mentioned we could say such depends of the animal (we consider) . snakes feels it by heat sensors at night, bats use ultrasounds...we use a combination because we adapted our way of life to a multifaceted world
(Bedouins do diferently on that point than Maoris or Manhattaners)
THE 3-D SENSORS DEPENDS ON A PSYSIOLOGY THAT PROVIDES TWO-VIEWS OF THE SAME OBJECT IN SPACE. BY "VIEWS" IS MEAN STERO-VIEWS. EARS, NOSE, EYES, HANDS, FEET, LEGS, ETC. ALL PROVED US WITH STEREO-OPPORTUNITIES TO KNOW ABOUT THE SPACE IN WHICH WE EXIST.
21) about the visualization of movement , added that such depends on the medium used. slowmotion, ultraspeed photography, compared to Ansel Adams Chassis cameras...
AGAIN, MOVEMENT DEPENTS ON A MOTION BEARING, OR PULLING, AGAINST A MEDIUM. IT IS A COMPRESSION OR TENSION AGAINST A SPECIFIC MEDIUM THAT CAUSES MOVEMENT. IN THIS SENSE, IT IS PRIMARILY A BASIC STRUCTURAL CONSIDERATION.
22) about natural visualization, >> how could we describe or be sure that our way of visualization is "natural', anyways?
NATURAL OR UNNATURAL VISUALIZATION IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY IT?
23) If Da Vinci would have painted a large succession-sequence of Mona lisa's, each of those slowly changing his face from serious to smiling, or turning his head around, he would have produced a painted motion pictures.
MAYBE HE DID! LOOK CLOSELY AT THE SMILE. WAS IT PAINTED MANY TIMES TO DRAW THE FORM? WAS THE TENSION IN THE MUSCLES DEVELOPED BY A SERIES OF OVERLAYS? MAYBE WE WILL NEVER KNOW. BUT, HE STOPPED THE MOTION AT JUST THE RIGHT INSTANCE TO YIELD HE RESULTS INTENDED. OR DID HE DO IT?
WAS IT REALLY A HIGHER DICISION?
So the movement is possibly represented using any set / kind /support for the representation of the subject... you just have to produce in some way a sequence of those representations.
you can make a Kaleidoscope with sculptures instead of pictures in the circular rounded support.
NOW YOU HAVE THE IDEA!
but the mystery is that on a flat painting you can also perceive (see,,,feel, sense,,,,) movement, as coming from inside of one still image....
YES INDEED!
24) about the train's windows, I wrote about the image projected on the glass... it's
>> not a projection, as the light is perceived the same way if the train is stopped,
STILL, IT IS A PROJECTION; AND YOU MAY TRACE THAT PROJECTION WITH A MARKER ONTO THE WINDOW.
25) the change of perspective when you see a town at a distance trough the window of the train is the same as if a movie camera moves on a train, films trough the window and later you see the motion picture of the country side in a movie theater next night.
NOT EXACTLY! IT DEPENDS ON THE ANGLE OF THE VIEWING FRAME TO THE VIEW. IF FLAT TO THE VIEW, THEN YOU WILL SEE A 1-POINT PERSPECTIVE. TURN THE FRAME AT ONE ANGLE TO IT, AND YOU GET A 2-POINT PERSPECTIVE. AND, TURN IT A SECOND ANGLE IN ADDTION TO THE ONE ANGLE TO IT, AN YOU GET A 3-POINT PERSPECTIVE. BUT, THEN , I GUESS YOU HAVE MEANT TO SAY THAT.
what would be the difference ?
WHAT DIFFERENCE? PLEASE ELLABORATE?
26) if something is moving , anything, like a tree branch pushed by some wind, trough the stopped train window, the movie "re-goes on" in some way. without camera. for your eyes only.
YES. BOTH ARE RECORDING DEVICES. ONE IS A MACHINE DEVICE; AND THE OTHER IS A "NATURAL" RECORDING DEVICE. (IS MATTA ON THE RIGHT TRACK?)
27) Stop the movie projector in any theater, and the objects become one still flat imagery , a nature morte, generally like a bad painting.
YES. AND CLOSE THE EYES, OR GO TO SLEEP, . . .
Japanse bonsai gardeners can see movement in still presentations ( not re-presentations ? ) of natural parts like sand seas, rocks or reduced trees. introspection... needs slowliness and immovility?
THESE IMAGES ARE REPRESENTATION OF MOTION AND MOVEMENT: THEY ARE VIRTUAL ANALOGUE MODELS OF ACTUAL MOTION AND MOVEMENT. (WITH TALENT, WE CAN ENVISION SUCH MOTION AND MOVEMENT TOO. THERE IS NOTHING IS SPECIAL IN BONSAI GARDENERS, EXCEPT THEIR TALENT.)
28) perspective is a kind of magic trick fooling or using some brain reflexes to help us understand what we feel when seeing any well build or painted representation of some object. a house, a flower arrangement or a country side.
IT CAN BE TRICKY. FOR EXAMPLE, A PROJECTION UNTO A SURFACE OTHER THAN A FLAT ONE, WILL RESULT IN A "DISTORTED" IMAGE OF REALITY.
29) about the experimental baby near a glasscovered emptiness, and his way of thinking
i mentioned >> he can't imagine he believes in something, he just reacts instinctively until he learns his first lesson
and before that moment He certainly doesn't know the risks, before passing through the intronisation, the learning process... If he remembers later his first experience, next time he'll know and cross over the glass bridge without fear, and be better prepared for the next experience to follow in his learning process.
FEW OF US CAN REMEMBER BEING BORN. I CAN! AND I CAN REMEMBER SEEING MY FIRST IMAGES OF THE WORLD AROUND ME, I.E., MY ROOM AND ITS OBJECTS. I REMEMBER HOW MY PERCEPTION NEEDED TO ADJUST TO STILL AND MOVING OBJECTS. I REMEMBER HOW MY MIND HAD TO ACCEPT A KIND OF REALITY---MY REALITY OR THE REALITY. TO AVOID MADNESS, THAT HAD TO COME INTO BALANCE---AND FAST! INSIDE BECAME OUTSIDE; AND OBJECTS HAD TO BE ACCEPTED AS IS. LATER, WITH SOCILIZATION, THE BEAUTY OF SEEING THE WORLD IN AN INDIVIDUAL AND SPECIAL WAY, WAS CONDITIONED BY OTHERS. TRAGIC! IT TOOK LOTS OF UNLEARNING TO FIND THE WAY BACK TO A SPECIAL WAY OF SEEING. (DO NOT ALL ARTISTS AND ARCHITECTS HAVE THE SAME VISUALIZATION PROBLEM?) I FOUND OUT LATER, AROUND THE AGE OF 11 YEARS, THAT MY SPATIAL PERCEPTION WAS IN THE UPPER PART OF THE 10TH PERCENTILE. I HAD NO IDEA OF WHAT IT MEANT AT THE TIME. IT CERTAINLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT OF DESCRIPTIVE GEOMETRY---UNLESS THE KEY TO THE MATHEMATICS IS MADE EXPLICITE. THAT IS, WHAT ONE ACTUALLY SEES IS DEPENDENT ON THIS KIND OF SPATIAL PERCIPTION; AND THE MANIPULATION OF VISUAL DEISGN ELEMENTS IN SPACE IS DEPENDENT ON THE KEY ONLY. SOME SEE MORE THAN OTHER, DEPENDING ON THER SPATIAL PERCEPTION. IT IS A GREAT GIFT!
30) about point and plane (from the moon idea) , i wrote that >>
To consider 2d movement you need to accept that a line`s height, written with your pencil moving over/on a paper sheet, by reference to the paper plane, is infinitesimally inexistent, for if not you write in 3d .... : actually
i referred here to the fact the 2d movement of a pencil point on a plane paper produces a result not exactly as flat as the paper on wich the line is made. the line has some height, therefore the paper plane becomes a surface with a third dimension... ( represented the height of the carbon line over the paper plane)
THIS IS AN EXAGGERATION! I CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT. WHAT IS MEAN IS THAT THE TELERANCE IS SO SMALL THAT IT IS IMPERCEIVABLE. JUST ACCEPT IT A 2-SPACE--FOR CONVENIENCE. AVOID CONFUSING EUCLIDIAN NOTIONS OF 2-SPACE AS NOT HAVING A 3RD DIMENSION WITH NOTIONS OF 2-SPACE REPRESENTATION OF 3-SPACE--WICH DOES ACTUALLY HAVE 3-DIMENSIONS. WE GO FROM THE FORMEER TO THE LATTER IN DESIGNING PHYSICAL 3-SPACE MOVEMENTS. THE ILUSTRATION IS POINTLESS.
31) How can spoken/written verbal models and mathematical models be used to describe analog models and how can actual (working) models be exemplified?
AS SUGGESTED IN THE TEXT ABOVE, WE USE LOWER-LEVEL MODELS REPRESENTING MOVEMENT TO ARRIVE AT HIGHER-LEVEL MODELS---OF ACTUAL MOVEMENT.
32) What are possible applications of basic design movement to applied (architectural) design?
when i read "basic design movement", i wonder if such is not a non-physical but a kind of socio-political one. confusion of defintion of design movement (there are many) but what's the basic then ? something like Babylonian (for considering basic as historical )
"BASIC" IS ESSENTIAL, FUNDAMENTAL, ELEMENTARY. USE A SIMPLE DICTIONARY DEFINITION TO UNDERSTAND IT. IT IS NON-PHYSICAL IN THE INITIAL DESIGN STAGES OF FINDING ITS ACTUAL PHYSICAL RESULT.
33) So, how is "movement" defined?
I COULD DEFINE IT AS A SET OF THE SAME VISUAL DESIGN ELEMENTS (POINTS, LINES, PLANES, SOLIDS) WITH ARE SEQUENTIALLY RELATED TO ONE ANOTHER IN SPACE IN SOME SPECIAL WAY.
any book of physics gives the basic s. distance per time.
PHYSICS IS DISCUSSED IN THE TEXT ABOVE.
But if we need a more subtle definition of movement, we must define new expressions and therefore use extremely well constructed , intelligible phraseology first and foremost describing our needs.
IT COULD BE OUR WANTS AS WELL.
--what we are going to describe.
--what would YOU describe as movement ? given such theme/starting block, it's easier to follow the link. so please explain what YOU have in mind here.
PLEASE SEE THE ABOVE DESCRIPTIONS.
34) What are some other questions concerning movement ? >>>>>the "perpetual one" discovery is the key to success... :-)
PERPETUAL MOTION IS NOT PERPETUAL MOVEMENT. THE FACT THAT IN OUR WORLD GRAVITY AND FRICTION LIMIT PERPETUAL MOTION LEAVES US WITH THE NEED TO CAUSE MOTION TO CONTINUE: WE REACT AGAINS THE CONDITION. ALSO, BY EXTENSION, WE ARE MORTALS: LIFE ENDS. WE REMAIN DYNAMIC ONLY IN THE ROTATION OF OUR DUST AROUND THE UNIVERSE.
35) Why do objects appear to move in pictorial space?
IT IS DUE TO THEIR SEQUENCING FROM THE FIRST OBJECT TO THE LAST ONE, AND THROUGH THE SEQUENCE TO GET THERE.
the problem is to define, again, what 's a pictorial space.
THERE IS A GOOD BOOK ON THE EXACT SUBJECT IN MY LIBRARY.
a painting like the Mona Lisa? why are spectators saying they feel his eyes are moving: are you referring to such appearance ?
THIS IS APPEARANCE. IT IS NOT ACTUALLY HAPPENING. WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE ACTUALLY MOVING IN RELATIONSHIP TO IT. IT IS A RELATIVE CONTEXT.
or the graffiti on a suburban wall?
I LOVE GRAFFITI.
THE MOVEMENT OF THE HAND AND ARM, SO DYNAMIC, LEAVES US WITH A TRACING OF THE ORIGINAL EVENT. IS IT NOT WONDERFUL? THE PRESSURE, THE TURNS, ETC. ARE ALL RECORDED AS A 2-D ANALOGUE OF THE ORIGINAL DRAWING. THERE NEED TO BE MORE PLACES FOR GRAFITTI!
or the screen of the train window and their movie theater representations ?
. . .
36) Your starting point was :
It would be interesting to catagorize answers to these questions with the above images.
YES.
But images can't be described exactly with words, neither can be answers/texts be referred correctly to images, and less words categorized in exact reference to the visuals they try to describe, or the contrary.
{try to describe with one image/icon just a simple word like "love" or "sulfuric acid"}
BUT WE COULD TAKE A TRY AT IT. NO?
Well, what I had hoped for was a reorganization of the images into catagories---and some text to support those placements. Is that possible?
YES.
offer, again, the starting block, then....
HOW ABOUT FINDING IT IN THE DESIGN LIST ARCHIVE, OR IN YOUR EARLIER EMAIL FROM ME TO THE LIST?
THEN, A CUT-AND-PASTE PROCES COULD BE USED.
Howard ! :-)
37) You are beginning to do very well.
doing what well ? (thanks, anyway. you should try yourself some dissertations in spanish or even french, and I'll offer to do the typography here.... :-)
;-)
38) Is it fun for you?
not exactly, just trying to move my neurones around their third base.
;-)
38) Once understood, the intellectual problem will be to connect BASIC DESIGN of virtual movement and actual movement to APPLIED (architectural) DESIGN.
let's hope so. but virtual seems always un-real, just a possible... or a precursor.
just as applied teory , if too abstract, can be un-practical ? -
TRUE.
i mean can be-come unrealizable, for practical contradictions or unsolved problems when another brain tries to realize, un-virtualize them with materials)
THE REALITY NEED TO BE ENGINEERED.
(coda>) (the Zappa song, i thought was in the "excentrifugal force" record
was actually in the "Overnight sensation^ record
Ach those neurones. need a machinery to rejuvenate those... if not a machination....
. . .
patrice.
(just reviewed )
(for the New-yorkians on the list, how is Pale Mate doing around/over Central park this spring ?
(just seen him and family yesterday on PBS)
It remembered the wounded red tail i helped for weeks here, years ago, and dead for my lack of prevision of his improved wing movement. extremely wonderful birds, smooth as silk, terrific eyes (at least for me ...) and gentle as a cat when sleeping on his(her) back , belly up, with the head covered with some tissue...
I still believe he somehow instinctively understood i tried to repair his broken wing (and feed him, a difficult task, believe me...)
(not much pigeons flying around here, compared with Central Park)
P.
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First of all, thank you for discussing the subject of "movement" and "motion" with me.
And, I am especially gratified, since you are handicapped by language.
And, I am amazed that our other listers have yet to jump into the discussion.
But, then, it makes communication on the Subject much easier to persue.
I shall try to make some sense of the following comments.
In doing so, I wIll try to achieve simplicity for reading.
ALSO, I AM REPLYING IN (mostly) CAPITALIZED BLUE TYPE.
I am sharing this information with our Design List subscribers.
I am doing this for its educational value to design/designers.
Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: patachon
To: Howard Ray Lawrence
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:52 PM
Subject: for your eyes only
Patrice:
1) Since when is pragmatics the primary objective of applied design?
if you apply your design into some result, you become pragmatic, as you produce a finite result.
I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT.
2) analog movement means similar movement ? a definition ?
An analog of a given movement is a set of movement properties representing an actual movement.
so, then analogy is a re-presentation of a prior event. a re-enactment (...) doing something again. with a similar effect or result.
YES.
but if the analogy is there, it can be also exactly similar.
and no difference has to be necesarily awaited between a movement and his analogy.
NO. THIS IS WRONG. VIRTUAL MOVEMENT IS NOT ACTUAL MOVEMENT.
THE STATIC VIRTUAL MOVEMENT MUST BE PUT INTO DYNAMIC MOVMENT, AN ACTUAL ACTION.
same way of expression of a physical event
same law of expression, and therefore same words to describe it.
WELL, WORDS, MATHEMATICS, AND ANALOGUES MAY BE USED TO DESCRIBE THE MOVEMENT; AND THIS IS USUALLY THE APPROACH TO DESIGNING THE MOVEMENT.
3) Suppose we are also trying to find a definition of what's exactly "physical " : a first approach would be by comparing physical to others "concepts" of thinking.
I'LL BITE. PHYSICAL MEANS MATERIAL. IT IS BASED ON A CONCEPT.
4) Does design need a physical support always ? could the concept ( of movement f.i.) stay purely teorical at some stage , like let's say in the theory of the atomic bomb before the analysis of his physical , real effects ? without a theory beeing pragmatically applied ?
I SUPPOSE IT COULD. HOWEVER, IF ONE IS DOING PHYSICAL DESIGN, THEN IT MUST BE BUILT IN THE REAL WORLD, NOT JUST REMAIN IN THE IMAGINED WORLD. WE ARE PHYSICAL DESIGNERS, IF WE ARE DOING ARCHITECTURE, PAINTING, SCULPTURE, ETC. THE OBJECTIVE OF OUR WORK IS TO PLACE SOMETHING-FROM-NOTHING INTO THE PHYSICAL WORLD.
5) Physical versus abstract ? materialized versus idealized ? applied vs designed ?
PLEASE REFER TO MY EARLIER COMMENTS.
6) motion moves some thing, in some form of relative movement one to another, and encircling (tirning around) is a movement and a motion, stars move in the sky, the sun seems motionless at the center of the universe, a.s.o.
MOTION CAN ONLY MOVE SOMETHING IF THERE IS A MEDIUM AGAINST WHICH IT ACTS. IF NO MEDIUM, THEN NO MOVEMENT.
7) any displacement is supposed by reference to another object, fixed or moving.
YOU ARE CORRECT. MOVEMENT IS UNDERSTOOD TO EXIST BASED ON A REFERENCE TO THE PARTS BEING MOVED. THAT IS, ELEMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, CHANGING POSITION IN SPACE, WILL PROVIDE A REFERENCE TO PREVIOUSLY DEFINED ELEMENTS IN SPACE. SO, ON THIS BASIS WE MAY PERCEIVE AN CHANGE IN THE POSITIONING OF THE ELEMENTS. THAT IS, WE MAY PERCEIVE A MOVEMENT.
the time to execute/travel a distance is used commonly as the necessary reference included in some equation to dexpress the result.
d=vt; t= d/v; v=d/t. where, d=distance (feet; inches, cm,meters, etc.); v=velocity (distance/time) (feet/seconds); t=time (seconds, nanoseconds, etc.).
So movement or motion use time as reference. eventually a difference between motion and movement is the reference we are using for each. any example of such diference then ?
MOVEMENT IS NOT MOTION! WE MAY/MUST REFERENCE MOVEMENT BY DISTANCE, VELOCITY AND/OR TIME.
If you accept (for the earth) that motion is a kind of rotation on herself, and movement is just a displacement more visble, around the sun, eventually we create/ have such set of definitions: motion can be invisble without a visible reference, movement is perceived by comparison.
THIS IS A QUESTION OF THE SCALE OF THE OBJECT-SPACE RELATIONSHIP. IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE OBSERVER OF THE MOTION AND MOVEMENT.
8) the point here is what's the difference betwen motion and movement. where does it begin? and is there a diference ? in the french, motion and mouvement are "covering" very diferent concepts. Motion (f.i. "de censure" is a kind of action in politics, mouvement is THE physical perception. Movie /motion / movement...
but we could say the motion is the base of the movement if we accept motion more as the basic force of movement, Like his motor ...
the motion is the base of the movement . . .motion more as the basic force of movement. . .
9) a movie film ( a set of moving images) is said to be a "motion picture" : is 'it because we can't see actually the motioned images on the acetate tape but we see the movement produced on the screen as a result of some "invisible" process ? (actually the complete details of the movie filming and projection process is unknown from many if not the majority of the movie viewers)
ON THE FILM ARE A SET OF STATIC IMAGES OF SEQUENCES OF MOTION. THE FILM IS THE MEDIUM ON WHICH THE MOTION IS REPRESENTED AS A SERIES OF STATIC IMAGES. EACH IMAGE IS IN A DIFFERENT POSITION WITHIN A FRAME OF REFERENCE. IN PASSING THROUGH THE PROJECTOR MECHANISM, EACH STATIC IMAGE IS RECEIVED BY THE EYE, AND THE BRAIN, IN A SET SEQUENCE. DEPENDING ON THE RATE OF RECEPTION, THE PERCEIVED MOVEMENT IS EITHER STACATTO OR SLURED. BUT IN THIS CASE THE MOVEMENT IS VIRTUAL MOVEMENT RATHER THAN ACTUAL MOVEMENT. IT IS NOT PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IT MAY, OR MAY NOT, HAVE BEEN DERIVED FROM PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IT MAY HAVE BEEN DERIVED FROM IMAGINED, OR CONCEPTUAL, MOVEMENT. BUT IT COULD, OR COULD NOT, EVENTUALLY BE CONSTRUCTED INTO ACTUAL PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. MUCH DEPENDS ON THE INTENT OF THE DESIGNER, AND THE PHYSICS AND ENGINEERING OF ITS IMPLEMENTATION.
10) time is probably just a way to measure a necessity we invented, our need to locate ourselves on some scale of passing (moving) events around us, like the moon phases or seasons.
d=vt IS THE BASIS OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF TIME TO VELOCITY AND DISTANCE. SOMETIMES IT IS UNNECESSARY TO ACTUALLY MEASURE THESE RELATIONSHIPS IN THE DESIGN PROCESS. THAT IS, THEY JUST INITIALLY EXIST IN SOME RELATIONSHIP. HOWEVER, SPECIFYING THAT RELATIONSHIP CAN GIVE PRECISION TO THE INTENTIONS OF THE DESIGN APPLICATION. IN FACT, SUCH SPECIFICATIONS ARE NECESSARY TO MAKE THE MOVEMENT WORK IN ANY GIVEN CONTEXT. WITHOUT SUCH A SPECIFICATION, THE RESULTS OF THE DESIGN COULD BE DISASTEROUS!
later on we progressively accelerated our created motions and sowe needed more precise timings of our movements.
MAYBE. IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE CONTEXT.
11) analog is for me similar to the reference, but presented using under another name, word, definition ( similarity/same nature/reproductible/assimilable...) but for you ? Is there have another definition when applied to movement (physical) you could describe
And is actual : present (as in "now" !) ; real; effective (factual), accidental,... or what else?
THE BASIC IDEA IS THAT MOTION AND MOVEMENT ARE DIFFERENCE. I HAVE TRIED TO DESCRIBE THIS DIFFERENCE IN THE TEXT ABOVE, SO IT SHOUL BE VERY CLEAR NOW. IF NOT, THEN PLEASE ASK ME AGAIN.
12) if physical laws are the same in any world, 2d and 3d design use the same laws (of concept, fabrication, perception, a.s.o. , )until we are confronted with diferences of the interpretation(s) each of us does within our CPU ( (inside our brain)...
THE ASSUMPTION THAT PHYSICAL LAWS ARE THE SAME IN ANY WORLD IS A GREAT LEAP OF FAITH. FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THAT 2-SPACE IS QUITE A DIFFERENT PLACE THAN 3-SPACE. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. SO, WE CAN CONCEIVE OF 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE MOVEMENTS AS ANALOGUES, AND THEY MAY, OR MAY NOT, BE CONNECTING WORLDS. BUT WE USUALLY USE 2-SPACE ANALOGUES TO DESIGN 3-SPACE ACTUAL MOVEMENTS.
13) physics of movement and his timing are always related, as without time there is no movement.
I WOULD AGREE. HOWEVER, TIME MAY NOT BE INITIALLY SPECIFIED AS EXACTLY IN THE 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE ANALOGUES OF IT. THAT IS, WE MAY COME TO SPECIFIC DEFINITION RELATING TO TIMING LATER. IT IS A CONDITION OF CONTEXT, TO APPLICATIONS.
14) academic definitions evolve by chance, relations between cultures, influences of thinkers, invention of slang, discoveries to become the academically sanitized (sometimes) but standardized definitions published in referecne books or dictionaries.
FOR NOW, LET US JUST LEAVE IT AT CHANCE. AND, OF COURSE, IT MAY BE SUFFICIENT TO BE AN ACADEMIC DEFINITION, BUT IS IS NOT NECESARILY AN ACADEMIC ONE. IT IS THE CONCEPTION OF MOVEMENT THAT IS OF INTEREST HERE.
15) about machine impact on human life, i should consider that they can be negative, parasites, symbionic or positive...
--- because they can make us become physically and sometimes spiritually lazy, (easier to see tv than read a book)
---- progress needs machines, but cars kills, Progress kills, in some way or sometimes, if the balance of pro and con effects are not exactly previsible (on the long run ) when first used or invented, Asbestos, Nitrogen oxides from diesel fuels, plastics,...
YES INDEED! PHYSICALLY MECHANIZING HUMAN LIFE MUST BE DONE WITH A CAREFUL BALANCE. OF COURSE, BY MACHINE, WE SIMPLE MEAN "MULTIPLYING OUR WORK EFFORTS". THAT CAN BE OF VALUE IN SERVING PRODUCTION. HOWEVER, IN SO, WE CAN MULTIPLY HUMAN LIFE ITESELF. SO, THE INITIAL BENEFITS OF MULTIPLYING WORK EFFORT ONLY SEEM TO LEAD TO MORE HUMAN LIFE---AND MORE DEMAND FOR MORE MACHINES TO SUPPORT IT! IF THROWN INTO AN IMBALANCE, THEN IT CAN LEAD TO A COLLAPSE OF CIVILIZATIONS. IT OFTEN DOES IN THE FORM OF "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse".
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/4horse.jpg.html
THERE ARE, OF COURSE, MANY INTREPRETATIONS OF THIS BIBLICAL CONCERN OF REVALATIONS.
16) the concept of speeding things using machines is extremely huge inour modern world.
we need more speed each day, more speed of (abstract) communication, tv, cellphones, WWW), and simultaneously we loose on the same basis the sense of our presence on earth with relation to our natural environment and our neighbours. Our system of interrelationship becomes artificial.
AN INDIVIDUALS, AND GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS, WE MUST WORK ON CHANGING THESE RELATIONSHIPS.
BUT, SPEED ITSELF, IS NOT REALLY MY EXACT CONCERN IN THIS DISCUSSION: MY EXACT CONCERN IS THE DESIGN OF PHYSICAL MOVEMENT. IN TERMS OF APPLIED DESIGN, IT IS STILL QUITE STIMULATING (OR EXCITING) TO TRAVEL THROUGH SPACE AT ANY SCALE, ENCLOSED OR EXPOSED.
17) We need excessiive material support ( certainlly monetary) for surviving in urban or residential areas, spending more and more for futilities like Humvees or Rolex watches, and can't figure we could learn again to wait a pair of days to glue correctly an old book or see the cherries blossoming after the fowers in our gardens or public spaces. 18) about bionics, i asked if you were kidding ? you mean humanlike robots ? the day they cure themselves of their own failures ( or rusting ball bearings problems) , produce their own software to learn chinese or Kiswaeli or save a stroke patient by the books, we'll talk again...
WELL PERHAPS. . . THE WORK OF THE CHILEAN ARTIST ROBERTO MATTA SHOWS US A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF OUR CURRENT WORKS ON EARTH. PERHAPS IT IS ANOTHER WARNING TO US!
http://www.matta-art.com/
18) about flat imagery , and movies beeing a false effect of pseudo 3d, i wrote that a a movie is a succession of still impressions ,on a bromured celluloid or a pixeled tv screen, of something happening in front of the sensor. . If you look at a roll of images, flat, 2d, on some acetate support, you have no movement if the roll isn't moved in the movie projector. movement of the roll produce , eventually, 3d , on the screen
YES. I DISCUSSED THAT ASPECT IN THE TEXT ABOVE.
19) you can't make a picture movie of a still object, without any movement, (neither of the camera or object) except for very artistic, quite autistic purposes....
YOU MIGHT WANT TO EXPAND ON THIS IDEA.
(I HAVE OBSERVED THE DESIGN OF BOTH 2-SPACE AND 3-SPACE---VIRTUAL AND ACTUAL--- MOVEMENTS.)
20) about the 3d sensors we have on your head and the way they (we) see (perceive) perspective, distance and proportions, i mentioned we could say such depends of the animal (we consider) . snakes feels it by heat sensors at night, bats use ultrasounds...we use a combination because we adapted our way of life to a multifaceted world
(Bedouins do diferently on that point than Maoris or Manhattaners)
THE 3-D SENSORS DEPENDS ON A PSYSIOLOGY THAT PROVIDES TWO-VIEWS OF THE SAME OBJECT IN SPACE. BY "VIEWS" IS MEAN STERO-VIEWS. EARS, NOSE, EYES, HANDS, FEET, LEGS, ETC. ALL PROVED US WITH STEREO-OPPORTUNITIES TO KNOW ABOUT THE SPACE IN WHICH WE EXIST.
21) about the visualization of movement , added that such depends on the medium used. slowmotion, ultraspeed photography, compared to Ansel Adams Chassis cameras...
AGAIN, MOVEMENT DEPENTS ON A MOTION BEARING, OR PULLING, AGAINST A MEDIUM. IT IS A COMPRESSION OR TENSION AGAINST A SPECIFIC MEDIUM THAT CAUSES MOVEMENT. IN THIS SENSE, IT IS PRIMARILY A BASIC STRUCTURAL CONSIDERATION.
22) about natural visualization, >> how could we describe or be sure that our way of visualization is "natural', anyways?
NATURAL OR UNNATURAL VISUALIZATION IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY IT?
23) If Da Vinci would have painted a large succession-sequence of Mona lisa's, each of those slowly changing his face from serious to smiling, or turning his head around, he would have produced a painted motion pictures.
MAYBE HE DID! LOOK CLOSELY AT THE SMILE. WAS IT PAINTED MANY TIMES TO DRAW THE FORM? WAS THE TENSION IN THE MUSCLES DEVELOPED BY A SERIES OF OVERLAYS? MAYBE WE WILL NEVER KNOW. BUT, HE STOPPED THE MOTION AT JUST THE RIGHT INSTANCE TO YIELD HE RESULTS INTENDED. OR DID HE DO IT?
WAS IT REALLY A HIGHER DICISION?
So the movement is possibly represented using any set / kind /support for the representation of the subject... you just have to produce in some way a sequence of those representations.
you can make a Kaleidoscope with sculptures instead of pictures in the circular rounded support.
NOW YOU HAVE THE IDEA!
but the mystery is that on a flat painting you can also perceive (see,,,feel, sense,,,,) movement, as coming from inside of one still image....
YES INDEED!
24) about the train's windows, I wrote about the image projected on the glass... it's
>> not a projection, as the light is perceived the same way if the train is stopped,
STILL, IT IS A PROJECTION; AND YOU MAY TRACE THAT PROJECTION WITH A MARKER ONTO THE WINDOW.
25) the change of perspective when you see a town at a distance trough the window of the train is the same as if a movie camera moves on a train, films trough the window and later you see the motion picture of the country side in a movie theater next night.
NOT EXACTLY! IT DEPENDS ON THE ANGLE OF THE VIEWING FRAME TO THE VIEW. IF FLAT TO THE VIEW, THEN YOU WILL SEE A 1-POINT PERSPECTIVE. TURN THE FRAME AT ONE ANGLE TO IT, AND YOU GET A 2-POINT PERSPECTIVE. AND, TURN IT A SECOND ANGLE IN ADDTION TO THE ONE ANGLE TO IT, AN YOU GET A 3-POINT PERSPECTIVE. BUT, THEN , I GUESS YOU HAVE MEANT TO SAY THAT.
what would be the difference ?
WHAT DIFFERENCE? PLEASE ELLABORATE?
26) if something is moving , anything, like a tree branch pushed by some wind, trough the stopped train window, the movie "re-goes on" in some way. without camera. for your eyes only.
YES. BOTH ARE RECORDING DEVICES. ONE IS A MACHINE DEVICE; AND THE OTHER IS A "NATURAL" RECORDING DEVICE. (IS MATTA ON THE RIGHT TRACK?)
27) Stop the movie projector in any theater, and the objects become one still flat imagery , a nature morte, generally like a bad painting.
YES. AND CLOSE THE EYES, OR GO TO SLEEP, . . .
Japanse bonsai gardeners can see movement in still presentations ( not re-presentations ? ) of natural parts like sand seas, rocks or reduced trees. introspection... needs slowliness and immovility?
THESE IMAGES ARE REPRESENTATION OF MOTION AND MOVEMENT: THEY ARE VIRTUAL ANALOGUE MODELS OF ACTUAL MOTION AND MOVEMENT. (WITH TALENT, WE CAN ENVISION SUCH MOTION AND MOVEMENT TOO. THERE IS NOTHING IS SPECIAL IN BONSAI GARDENERS, EXCEPT THEIR TALENT.)
28) perspective is a kind of magic trick fooling or using some brain reflexes to help us understand what we feel when seeing any well build or painted representation of some object. a house, a flower arrangement or a country side.
IT CAN BE TRICKY. FOR EXAMPLE, A PROJECTION UNTO A SURFACE OTHER THAN A FLAT ONE, WILL RESULT IN A "DISTORTED" IMAGE OF REALITY.
29) about the experimental baby near a glasscovered emptiness, and his way of thinking
i mentioned >> he can't imagine he believes in something, he just reacts instinctively until he learns his first lesson
and before that moment He certainly doesn't know the risks, before passing through the intronisation, the learning process... If he remembers later his first experience, next time he'll know and cross over the glass bridge without fear, and be better prepared for the next experience to follow in his learning process.
FEW OF US CAN REMEMBER BEING BORN. I CAN! AND I CAN REMEMBER SEEING MY FIRST IMAGES OF THE WORLD AROUND ME, I.E., MY ROOM AND ITS OBJECTS. I REMEMBER HOW MY PERCEPTION NEEDED TO ADJUST TO STILL AND MOVING OBJECTS. I REMEMBER HOW MY MIND HAD TO ACCEPT A KIND OF REALITY---MY REALITY OR THE REALITY. TO AVOID MADNESS, THAT HAD TO COME INTO BALANCE---AND FAST! INSIDE BECAME OUTSIDE; AND OBJECTS HAD TO BE ACCEPTED AS IS. LATER, WITH SOCILIZATION, THE BEAUTY OF SEEING THE WORLD IN AN INDIVIDUAL AND SPECIAL WAY, WAS CONDITIONED BY OTHERS. TRAGIC! IT TOOK LOTS OF UNLEARNING TO FIND THE WAY BACK TO A SPECIAL WAY OF SEEING. (DO NOT ALL ARTISTS AND ARCHITECTS HAVE THE SAME VISUALIZATION PROBLEM?) I FOUND OUT LATER, AROUND THE AGE OF 11 YEARS, THAT MY SPATIAL PERCEPTION WAS IN THE UPPER PART OF THE 10TH PERCENTILE. I HAD NO IDEA OF WHAT IT MEANT AT THE TIME. IT CERTAINLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT OF DESCRIPTIVE GEOMETRY---UNLESS THE KEY TO THE MATHEMATICS IS MADE EXPLICITE. THAT IS, WHAT ONE ACTUALLY SEES IS DEPENDENT ON THIS KIND OF SPATIAL PERCIPTION; AND THE MANIPULATION OF VISUAL DEISGN ELEMENTS IN SPACE IS DEPENDENT ON THE KEY ONLY. SOME SEE MORE THAN OTHER, DEPENDING ON THER SPATIAL PERCEPTION. IT IS A GREAT GIFT!
30) about point and plane (from the moon idea) , i wrote that >>
To consider 2d movement you need to accept that a line`s height, written with your pencil moving over/on a paper sheet, by reference to the paper plane, is infinitesimally inexistent, for if not you write in 3d .... : actually
i referred here to the fact the 2d movement of a pencil point on a plane paper produces a result not exactly as flat as the paper on wich the line is made. the line has some height, therefore the paper plane becomes a surface with a third dimension... ( represented the height of the carbon line over the paper plane)
THIS IS AN EXAGGERATION! I CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT. WHAT IS MEAN IS THAT THE TELERANCE IS SO SMALL THAT IT IS IMPERCEIVABLE. JUST ACCEPT IT A 2-SPACE--FOR CONVENIENCE. AVOID CONFUSING EUCLIDIAN NOTIONS OF 2-SPACE AS NOT HAVING A 3RD DIMENSION WITH NOTIONS OF 2-SPACE REPRESENTATION OF 3-SPACE--WICH DOES ACTUALLY HAVE 3-DIMENSIONS. WE GO FROM THE FORMEER TO THE LATTER IN DESIGNING PHYSICAL 3-SPACE MOVEMENTS. THE ILUSTRATION IS POINTLESS.
31) How can spoken/written verbal models and mathematical models be used to describe analog models and how can actual (working) models be exemplified?
AS SUGGESTED IN THE TEXT ABOVE, WE USE LOWER-LEVEL MODELS REPRESENTING MOVEMENT TO ARRIVE AT HIGHER-LEVEL MODELS---OF ACTUAL MOVEMENT.
32) What are possible applications of basic design movement to applied (architectural) design?
when i read "basic design movement", i wonder if such is not a non-physical but a kind of socio-political one. confusion of defintion of design movement (there are many) but what's the basic then ? something like Babylonian (for considering basic as historical )
"BASIC" IS ESSENTIAL, FUNDAMENTAL, ELEMENTARY. USE A SIMPLE DICTIONARY DEFINITION TO UNDERSTAND IT. IT IS NON-PHYSICAL IN THE INITIAL DESIGN STAGES OF FINDING ITS ACTUAL PHYSICAL RESULT.
33) So, how is "movement" defined?
I COULD DEFINE IT AS A SET OF THE SAME VISUAL DESIGN ELEMENTS (POINTS, LINES, PLANES, SOLIDS) WITH ARE SEQUENTIALLY RELATED TO ONE ANOTHER IN SPACE IN SOME SPECIAL WAY.
any book of physics gives the basic s. distance per time.
PHYSICS IS DISCUSSED IN THE TEXT ABOVE.
But if we need a more subtle definition of movement, we must define new expressions and therefore use extremely well constructed , intelligible phraseology first and foremost describing our needs.
IT COULD BE OUR WANTS AS WELL.
--what we are going to describe.
--what would YOU describe as movement ? given such theme/starting block, it's easier to follow the link. so please explain what YOU have in mind here.
PLEASE SEE THE ABOVE DESCRIPTIONS.
34) What are some other questions concerning movement ? >>>>>the "perpetual one" discovery is the key to success... :-)
PERPETUAL MOTION IS NOT PERPETUAL MOVEMENT. THE FACT THAT IN OUR WORLD GRAVITY AND FRICTION LIMIT PERPETUAL MOTION LEAVES US WITH THE NEED TO CAUSE MOTION TO CONTINUE: WE REACT AGAINS THE CONDITION. ALSO, BY EXTENSION, WE ARE MORTALS: LIFE ENDS. WE REMAIN DYNAMIC ONLY IN THE ROTATION OF OUR DUST AROUND THE UNIVERSE.
35) Why do objects appear to move in pictorial space?
IT IS DUE TO THEIR SEQUENCING FROM THE FIRST OBJECT TO THE LAST ONE, AND THROUGH THE SEQUENCE TO GET THERE.
the problem is to define, again, what 's a pictorial space.
THERE IS A GOOD BOOK ON THE EXACT SUBJECT IN MY LIBRARY.
a painting like the Mona Lisa? why are spectators saying they feel his eyes are moving: are you referring to such appearance ?
THIS IS APPEARANCE. IT IS NOT ACTUALLY HAPPENING. WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE ACTUALLY MOVING IN RELATIONSHIP TO IT. IT IS A RELATIVE CONTEXT.
or the graffiti on a suburban wall?
I LOVE GRAFFITI.
THE MOVEMENT OF THE HAND AND ARM, SO DYNAMIC, LEAVES US WITH A TRACING OF THE ORIGINAL EVENT. IS IT NOT WONDERFUL? THE PRESSURE, THE TURNS, ETC. ARE ALL RECORDED AS A 2-D ANALOGUE OF THE ORIGINAL DRAWING. THERE NEED TO BE MORE PLACES FOR GRAFITTI!
or the screen of the train window and their movie theater representations ?
. . .
36) Your starting point was :
It would be interesting to catagorize answers to these questions with the above images.
YES.
But images can't be described exactly with words, neither can be answers/texts be referred correctly to images, and less words categorized in exact reference to the visuals they try to describe, or the contrary.
{try to describe with one image/icon just a simple word like "love" or "sulfuric acid"}
BUT WE COULD TAKE A TRY AT IT. NO?
Well, what I had hoped for was a reorganization of the images into catagories---and some text to support those placements. Is that possible?
YES.
offer, again, the starting block, then....
HOW ABOUT FINDING IT IN THE DESIGN LIST ARCHIVE, OR IN YOUR EARLIER EMAIL FROM ME TO THE LIST?
THEN, A CUT-AND-PASTE PROCES COULD BE USED.
Howard ! :-)
37) You are beginning to do very well.
doing what well ? (thanks, anyway. you should try yourself some dissertations in spanish or even french, and I'll offer to do the typography here.... :-)
;-)
38) Is it fun for you?
not exactly, just trying to move my neurones around their third base.
;-)
38) Once understood, the intellectual problem will be to connect BASIC DESIGN of virtual movement and actual movement to APPLIED (architectural) DESIGN.
let's hope so. but virtual seems always un-real, just a possible... or a precursor.
just as applied teory , if too abstract, can be un-practical ? -
TRUE.
i mean can be-come unrealizable, for practical contradictions or unsolved problems when another brain tries to realize, un-virtualize them with materials)
THE REALITY NEED TO BE ENGINEERED.
(coda>) (the Zappa song, i thought was in the "excentrifugal force" record
was actually in the "Overnight sensation^ record
Ach those neurones. need a machinery to rejuvenate those... if not a machination....
. . .
patrice.
(just reviewed )
(for the New-yorkians on the list, how is Pale Mate doing around/over Central park this spring ?
(just seen him and family yesterday on PBS)
It remembered the wounded red tail i helped for weeks here, years ago, and dead for my lack of prevision of his improved wing movement. extremely wonderful birds, smooth as silk, terrific eyes (at least for me ...) and gentle as a cat when sleeping on his(her) back , belly up, with the head covered with some tissue...
I still believe he somehow instinctively understood i tried to repair his broken wing (and feed him, a difficult task, believe me...)
(not much pigeons flying around here, compared with Central Park)
P.
--
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