In a message dated 17/07/2004 13:44:49 GMT Standard Time, tgeorgescu@xxxxxxx
writes:
Jud once produced the following red herring:
Anselm was wrong, because he supposed all people have the idea of God, but
it is not so: not all of them have it.
Why is it a red herring?
Year 5000. Humanity is all gone materialistic, they have all their dreams
fulfilled through science and social engineering. Words as "being", "God",
"thing", "awareness", etc., no longer exist; they have been long ago erased
from all dictionaries, because they were useless rubbish.
Jud:
You are wrong Tudor. These abstractions — the words "God" and "Being" and
"thing" and "awareness,", etc., will survive — and rightly so.
Why? Well, for a number of reasons.
(1) The words "God" and "Being" are vitally necessary for retrospectively
describing man's primitive past and the crude ways that he used to think.
There could be no viable description of man's past ignorance entrapped in
the slough of religion if the historical signification which stood for what
they once believed were to be eliminated or forgotten. It is vitally important
that the chaos, destruction, despair and wholesale murder associated with
religion and transcendentalism should NOT be forgotten.
Words describing the horrific incidents which religion gave birth to, like
the holocaust, the crusades, the Gulags, the Inca and Aztec religious
attrocities, the inquisition, the religious divide in Palestine/Israel, Northern
Ireland, Indonesia, India and about ever damn country in the world except the
Vatican State maybe? etc., [one could go on ALL DAY] These infamous words
["God" and "Being"] should NEVER be forgotten or expunged from our dictionaries
and encyclopaedias.
(2) The word "thing" is a handy little communicational tool for use when a
less detailed descriptive reference is made to an object in discussion. For
example rather than repeat: "Bring me the tempered steel, semi-eliptical,
longitudinal, asymmetrical leaf-spring!" it is far easier for an engineer to
shout: "Bring the thing here." This temporary denotative signification is fine
and dandy, for in this case the entity referenced by the word is mutually
understood and agreed following from being employed antecedally.
(3) As for the word "awareness" it is a perfectly good word — nothing wrong
with it at all as long as it is fully understood the ontologically IT DOESN'T
EXIST and that only that which is aware exists. The same goes for any of
these "-ness, -ity, -hood, abstractions — as long as our schools start to teach
the kids that those words only describe a state of modality of some entity or
entities that exist — then everything will be fine and the many-headed hydra
of destructive transcendentalism will be kept at bay.
Tudor:
Suddenly, one of them has a vision of God.
Jud:
In such a society a team of mental health medics would be summoned
immediately.
No citizen would be abandoned to find his own way into the legion of the
religiously damaged or end up a gutter-bum.
All physiological and psychological problems such as the religious hysteria
you illustrate would receive
instant hospitalisation.
Tudor:
He tells them: "I saw God, He
exists!"
Jud:
His nurses would smile indulgently and ask him what drugs he had been taking.
Could they disprove that God exists?
Jud:
NOBODY can disprove the non-existence of GOD or anything else to anybody —
because neither "existence" or "non-existence exist.
They could demand that God be produced immediately as evidence for the
claim. If no such evidence were forthcoming
then the claim would be false. {as it is with the "Being" fantasy]
Tudor:
No, because they do not know
that word.
Jud:
But they WOULD no that word — certainly if they had paid attention in their
history lessons.
Tudor:
So, in order for them to disprove his vision, they all or some of
them have to learn the new word, "God", employ it and begin anew with the
questions pertaining to metaphysics.
Jud:
No, they would be quite aware of the meaning and import of the word and take
steps accordingly.
In the odd case [and I am only going along with this charade to amuse
myself] where a person had never herald the word "God" before,
he would soon realise what the patient was suffering from when the poor man
went into greater detail as to the so-called nature of this "God"
He may well demand evidence as to the fact that this "God" existed — and
then again he may not, but rather silently leave the room, close the door
quietly, and hope that when he did his ward-rounds later the patient might have
recovered a little after a good rest.
Tudor:
In fact, they would be not more
advanced, but more retarded. All their devices which ensured for their high
living standard were in fact turning them into metaphysical retards.
Jud:
"Metaphysics" would not be an issue. By the time you mention [surely you
mean the year 50,000 - not 5000?] metaphysics will be just as much a part of
history as "God" or "Being." and will be on par with the crudities of the New
Guinean natives and their Gods with no heads that glowed at the neck.
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writes:
Jud once produced the following red herring:
Anselm was wrong, because he supposed all people have the idea of God, but
it is not so: not all of them have it.
Why is it a red herring?
Year 5000. Humanity is all gone materialistic, they have all their dreams
fulfilled through science and social engineering. Words as "being", "God",
"thing", "awareness", etc., no longer exist; they have been long ago erased
from all dictionaries, because they were useless rubbish.
Jud:
You are wrong Tudor. These abstractions — the words "God" and "Being" and
"thing" and "awareness,", etc., will survive — and rightly so.
Why? Well, for a number of reasons.
(1) The words "God" and "Being" are vitally necessary for retrospectively
describing man's primitive past and the crude ways that he used to think.
There could be no viable description of man's past ignorance entrapped in
the slough of religion if the historical signification which stood for what
they once believed were to be eliminated or forgotten. It is vitally important
that the chaos, destruction, despair and wholesale murder associated with
religion and transcendentalism should NOT be forgotten.
Words describing the horrific incidents which religion gave birth to, like
the holocaust, the crusades, the Gulags, the Inca and Aztec religious
attrocities, the inquisition, the religious divide in Palestine/Israel, Northern
Ireland, Indonesia, India and about ever damn country in the world except the
Vatican State maybe? etc., [one could go on ALL DAY] These infamous words
["God" and "Being"] should NEVER be forgotten or expunged from our dictionaries
and encyclopaedias.
(2) The word "thing" is a handy little communicational tool for use when a
less detailed descriptive reference is made to an object in discussion. For
example rather than repeat: "Bring me the tempered steel, semi-eliptical,
longitudinal, asymmetrical leaf-spring!" it is far easier for an engineer to
shout: "Bring the thing here." This temporary denotative signification is fine
and dandy, for in this case the entity referenced by the word is mutually
understood and agreed following from being employed antecedally.
(3) As for the word "awareness" it is a perfectly good word — nothing wrong
with it at all as long as it is fully understood the ontologically IT DOESN'T
EXIST and that only that which is aware exists. The same goes for any of
these "-ness, -ity, -hood, abstractions — as long as our schools start to teach
the kids that those words only describe a state of modality of some entity or
entities that exist — then everything will be fine and the many-headed hydra
of destructive transcendentalism will be kept at bay.
Tudor:
Suddenly, one of them has a vision of God.
Jud:
In such a society a team of mental health medics would be summoned
immediately.
No citizen would be abandoned to find his own way into the legion of the
religiously damaged or end up a gutter-bum.
All physiological and psychological problems such as the religious hysteria
you illustrate would receive
instant hospitalisation.
Tudor:
He tells them: "I saw God, He
exists!"
Jud:
His nurses would smile indulgently and ask him what drugs he had been taking.
Could they disprove that God exists?
Jud:
NOBODY can disprove the non-existence of GOD or anything else to anybody —
because neither "existence" or "non-existence exist.
They could demand that God be produced immediately as evidence for the
claim. If no such evidence were forthcoming
then the claim would be false. {as it is with the "Being" fantasy]
Tudor:
No, because they do not know
that word.
Jud:
But they WOULD no that word — certainly if they had paid attention in their
history lessons.
Tudor:
So, in order for them to disprove his vision, they all or some of
them have to learn the new word, "God", employ it and begin anew with the
questions pertaining to metaphysics.
Jud:
No, they would be quite aware of the meaning and import of the word and take
steps accordingly.
In the odd case [and I am only going along with this charade to amuse
myself] where a person had never herald the word "God" before,
he would soon realise what the patient was suffering from when the poor man
went into greater detail as to the so-called nature of this "God"
He may well demand evidence as to the fact that this "God" existed — and
then again he may not, but rather silently leave the room, close the door
quietly, and hope that when he did his ward-rounds later the patient might have
recovered a little after a good rest.
Tudor:
In fact, they would be not more
advanced, but more retarded. All their devices which ensured for their high
living standard were in fact turning them into metaphysical retards.
Jud:
"Metaphysics" would not be an issue. By the time you mention [surely you
mean the year 50,000 - not 5000?] metaphysics will be just as much a part of
history as "God" or "Being." and will be on par with the crudities of the New
Guinean natives and their Gods with no heads that glowed at the neck.
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